When you grow up you’ll get it figured out. There isn’t a tooth fairy. There isn’t an Easter Bunny. And, painful as it may have been to find out, no Santa Claus either. Some folks have used that same kind of reasoning to say that there is no God. They’re wrong, but they say it anyway. One other thing that you can add to the “nonexistent” class is…..the atheist. There is no such thing as an atheist.
Before you get all excited to show me an example, let me explain. All people are born with an inherent knowledge that God exists and a desire to worship….something. We know by nature that this universe did not happen by chance. It couldn’t have, regardless of what the evolutionist tries to point to as evidence to the contrary. Reasonable people understand that, something does not create itself from nothing. Anyway, back to the “nonexistent” atheist.
The atheist says there is no God, but he worships one. Every time he looks in the mirror he says “praise the lord”. There are far more hypocrites who profess atheism than you will ever find in a church. While declaring that there is no God, the atheist worships himself! He takes many of the attributes of the Almighty and applies them to himself. The atheist is “all mighty”, “all knowing”, and in some senses, omnipresent. He believes in god, he just refuses to acknowledge the God of the Bible.
You see, if the atheist admits that the Almighty exists, he finds himself in a quandry. He must submit to Him or face the consequences. The truth is, it’s not so much that the atheist doesn’t believe in God, it’s that he hates Him! He wants to live as he pleases without the fear of judgment. Sadly, there is no escaping. The Scripture tells us that “it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the judgment” Hebrews 9:27. The only way to stand at that judgment with any degree of confidence, is to have the Judge as your defense attorney. Believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ, having His righteousness imputed to your account, is your only hope of eternal salvation.
Only a fool would reject such a gift. Can you afford to be wrong?
Wow! I had no idea you were such a liar. Well, perhaps you are simply ignorant. Are you a presuppositionalist? I think, at best, you have seriously misunderstood the concepts you have described and at worst, have deliberately misguided your audience to support a false view of atheism. Way to go! Keep up the misinformation and, perhaps, you will be able to fool your congregation into willful ignorance. It seems you are doing a good job of it so far.
Why does an atheist get so upset when his beliefs are challenged? If he/she really does not believe God exists, what difference does it make to them what other people think? That seems to be evidence of the truth of the article – that as god, others have to submit to their beliefs in order to satisfy them.
Well, is it o.k. for people to call christians satanists? Is there any good purpose in lying about what someone believes? I was simply trying to correct misinformation. I didn’t realize that you don’t really care what the truth is.
Hey, Jay, I remember when you were little and you got this upset, when I told you Rudolph the Red=nosed Reindeer didn’t exist. I guess, sadly, you haven’t changed in your insistence that your knowledge is somehow superior.
Well, actually, I don’t remember ever believing that. But if it makes you feel better to insult me and liken me to a silly child again, knock yourself out.
The difference is simply this: Christians proclaim a definite immutable truth as taught in the Bible. Atheists have no truth foundation to defend, since according to atheists, there is no God, and God is the source of truth. If there is no God, right and wrong must be determined by individuals, not by a higher standard of truth. If there is no God, I am at liberty to do anything I want to, and not have to give account. If a society throws God out of the equation, right and wrong will change according to the whim of the current mindset. The mindset is controlled by those most powerful or influential, and what right has anyone to stop them outside of God’s law? If there is no God, why would it be wrong to murder, since obviously man would not be created in God’s image, but would just be another animal? In fact, if someone stronger or better armed than you came into your home and killed your family and stole everything you own, would not that be simply survival of the fittest? It is God’s law that says, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc. Man’s law says, “If it feels good, do it,” and “might makes right.’ So, if your beliefs are misrepresented, is it right or wrong? What do you base right and wrong on outside of a holy immutable eternal Being? I am not saying that Christians have the right to misrepresent atheistic beliefs, but the Christian sees those beliefs from a completely different viewpoint, and the atheist has no immutable foundation of truth to argue from or stand on. For atheists, truth has become a matter of indiviual opinion, which can change from person to person and from time to time and situation to situation, which is no truth at all. To say there is an immutable truth upon which right and wrong are based is a Biblical Christian worldview.
There is a lot of things to unpack, but it doesn’t address the the problem involved with my disbelief of your claims that a god exists and how that makes me an atheist, which is contrary to the original post. One point I’d like to make is that you seem to think that a god has to exist or else you would be living in a world that you wouldn’t like to live in. Your preferences do not matter when it comes to a fact. Your beliefs don’t matter either. If you claim knowledge of something, back it up with credible evidence. Why is that so difficult? And please stop telling me what I believe because you don’t know unless I tell you. That’s just you trying to make another straw-man argument.
Jay, I did not tell you what you believe. I just said you have no absolute to base belief on, if you reject the existence of God. So, how about you telling me exactly what it is you do believe, and what you base that belief on. I would also be interested in how you address the points I made, instead of simply dismissing them. It seems that when you cannot answer intelligently, you fall back on the strawman terminology.
The terminology is apt. “For atheists, truth has become a matter of indiviual opinion, which can change from person to person and from time to time and situation to situation, which is no truth at all.”
Not so, at least in my case. When I say something is true, it means that it comports with reality. I believe we share the same reality. Some people may believe different things about reality but their beliefs don’t dictate reality itself. So, how is something determined to be real? It has to manifest in reality in a demonstrable way. In other words, it has to have credible evidence or there is no rational justification to believe it is real.
(some of what follows is an internal critique of christianity and theism in general, so please don’t mistake that for tacit acceptance.)
“It is God’s law that says, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc.”
Yet it seems the biblegod has told people to kill other people. Why does that become ok? Slavery was condoned, accepted, and supported by the biblegod, yet we humans now consider it to be immoral. It is also considered immoral to let the innocent be punished for the crimes of the guilty, yet that’s the plan for salvation according to the biblegod. Yes, I think it would be immoral of me to tell a guilty person that they had to accept that an innocent had to be punished in their place. I remember reading that the god in the bible, instead of being patient and leading people to do good things, made people defile themselves by commanding them to do things that were unrighteous.(I can cite chapter and verse, but you should already be aware of it) So the “divine” isn’t a suitable basis for moral judgments. You may say that we are his/its creation and he can do as he pleases and we better obey because he is too powerful to stand against, but how is that any different from “might makes right.” (I have had conversations with other christians who have used this argument, I am not saying that’s what you believe) This illustrates the problem with “Divine Command Theory” regarding morality. Is something wrong simply because your god tells you it is or is it intrinsically wrong? Do you think Abraham was acting morally when he attempted to kill his child? Do you believe it is moral for a god to even ask such a thing? Abraham is often revered for having such great faith, but I see it as a moral failure. Why is that? Perhaps I can empathize with Isaac in this instance.
“What do you base right and wrong on outside of a holy immutable eternal Being? ”
My sense of empathy for other humans goes a long way in moral decision making. Normal humans have something called “mirror neurons” in our brains that make us feel what others seem to be feeling. The implication is that I want to treat others well because when I don’t it makes me feel bad. But it isn’t just about me, I genuinely love my children and want the best for them, even if by giving them what they need out of love sometimes makes me feel bad physically. I love others too, and this can apply to them as well.
“If there is no God, I am at liberty to do anything I want to, and not have to give account. ”
Scary, isn’t it. It matters that humans are held accountable for their misdeeds. If I were to live an life of wanton abandon and hurt people without being caught, and at the end, regretted my misdeeds and asked for gods forgiveness through jesus christ and was accepted into an eternal reward and died that very minute, how is that being held accountable? What bothers me most about you saying that, is the fact that you seem to not recognize that you share your life with other people who love you and you do have to answer to them.
” If a society throws God out of the equation, right and wrong will change according to the whim of the current mindset.”
Yet, god was and is still used as a justification for some things we now regard as immoral and unjust and occasionally the “current mindset” takes into account things that were not known before.
“In fact, if someone stronger or better armed than you came into your home and killed your family and stole everything you own, would not that be simply survival of the fittest?”
Not if the “fittest” are those that have the ability to work as a team towards the benefit of everyone. That’s kinda how free societies tend to function. Still, there is a problem with trying to imply that because there are certain natural causes for things that we must to work that way as well, indifferent to the well-being of individuals.
“If there is no God, why would it be wrong to murder, since obviously man would not be created in God’s image, but would just be another animal?”
We are another animal, by definition. We don’t have skill sets and qualities other animals have and they don’t have the skill sets and qualities that we do, so why would we start acting like other animals? In some cases other animals will act better than humans and in some cases humans will act better than other animals. Humans, for the most part, have a greater capacity for empathy and reason than other animals. We can, and often do, act just like humans. Humans, for the most part, like being around other humans. we tend to have better lives together than we would have alone. Killing other humans makes those that survive less inclined to cooperate with you, so you wouldn’t have a very good life. Also, there is empathy. I tend not to kill people because I just don’t want to. But you were asking about a moral imperative. I see no more moral imperative in being told not to kill someone, or else be punished at some point after you die, than not wanting to kill someone, because I will suffer in this life if I do. I think we humans have to use our ability to reason and our sense of empathy to maneuver through a moral landscape.
” The mindset is controlled by those most powerful or influential, and what right has anyone to stop them outside of God’s law?”
My mindset is controlled by me, through my ability to reason, not an outside authority. What right is it theirs to rule? There have been and still are plenty of tyrants, dictators, and monarchs who ruled with an iron fist and claimed that “right” as a matter of divine mandate. What right had anyone to stop them if a god sanctioned their rule?
I assume that reality, or truth, is immutable, but our understanding of it determined through credible evidence and reasoned logic, if your goal is to find and accept only that which is shown to be true. If it wasn’t, and it could be altered at the whim of a powerful being or beings, you couldn’t know what truth or reality is, and thus you would have no foundation to base your claim of truth on.
“For atheists, truth has become a matter of indiviual opinion, which can change from person to person and from time to time and situation to situation, which is no truth at all.”
I see that same problem inherent in the belief in a capricious deity.
“When I say something is true, it means that it comports with reality. . . . Some people may believe different things about reality but their beliefs don’t dictate reality itself. So, how is something determined to be real? It has to manifest in reality in a demonstrable way. In other words, it has to have credible evidence or there is no rational justification to believe it is real.”
You are saying that other people’s beliefs do not dictate reality but that yours do. However, your beliefs only dictate the reality that you accept as true and leave no room for the possibility of error on your part. I see God manifested in reality in a demonstrable way every day. Continuing scientific discovery supports intelligent design, which points to an intelligent Designer. This can be researched easily. The evidence for the existence of God is easy to see, it is reality.
“It is God’s law that says, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc.”
Yet it seems the biblegod has told people to kill other people.
. . . Do you think Abraham was acting morally when he attempted to kill his child? Do you believe it is moral for a god to even ask such a thing? Abraham is often revered for having such great faith, but I see it as a moral failure.”
God’s law does say committing murder is wrong. It also says capital punishment is to be used in certain situations, such as when someone does commit murder. It allows for just war, and people die in war. Not every war that has been fought in recent history has been a just war, but as an example, what would have happened had Hitler not been stopped? When the Israelites went into Canaan, they were told to destroy the people of that land because of their wicked practices. They were told that if those people remained in the land, the Israelites would begin to do those same vile things and would come into judgment. They did not succeed in removing those people and they fell into the same vile practices.
When God told Abraham to take Isaac and sacrifice him, it was a test of faith. Some things are evident from the whole narrative. First, Abraham believed that he and Isaac would return from the mountain. He told his servants, “I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” He remembered the covenant that God had made that his descendants would be as the stars of the heaven and as the sand on the seashore, and his faith rested there, as he set out to obey even such a hard instruction. Isaac had not lived the life of faith in the same way Abraham had, he was simply born into that way of life and had not experienced the same relationship with God that Abraham had. When God, Who did not intend for Abraham to actually kill his son, stopped him and provided the ram, Isaac was a part of that and experienced hearing the voice of God to Abraham renewing the covenant, saying, “I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven . . . and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” Abraham and Isaac left, Abraham having demonstrated a true faith, and Isaac having had the chance to make that faith his own, not just something he had heard his father talk about. This was not a case of human sacrifice being carried out, God would not allow it to go that far. This was the evidence and perhaps birthing of true faith in two of the patriarchs of what would become a great nation.
“My sense of empathy for other humans goes a long way in moral decision making. ”
It is good that you have a sense of empathy for other humans, not everyone does. People often treat other people badly, either with words or abuse. This is common in society as a whole. They may be kind to those they love, and some people do care about people in general, but the opposite is actually true generally.
“We are another animal, by definition . . . Humans, for the most part, have a greater capacity for empathy and reason than other animals. . . . I tend not to kill people because I just don’t want to. . . . I think we humans have to use our ability to reason and our sense of empathy to maneuver through a moral landscape.”
It is good that you do not want to kill people. Most people don’t, but there are those that do. Why should someone suffer in this life if he kills a person who is by definition just another animal? Do you suffer if you kill a cow for food, or if you kill a mosquito? There is more to a human than an animal. The ability to think and reason and develop complex thought is a part of the image of God in mankind. But putting that argument aside, let’s consider using our reason and our sense of empathy to maneuver the moral landscape. Evidence clearly shows that life begins at conception, yet there are many people who have no empathy for the baby that is murdered in the womb. Or something simpler, is it reasonable and empathetic to use gossip to malign and destroy a person’s reputation? Yet that happens in offices and workplaces all over the country. The many ways people treat other people with cruelty would be a long list, and are not uncommon in society, so as a people, maneuvering through a moral landscape with reason and empathy seems to be a failed effort. This may work for you, but it does not work in general. Suppose your neighbor finds it reasonable to steal your car, it benefits him and those to whom his empathy is directed. To your point of view he may be wrong, but he is acting reasonable and empathetically in his own consideration. Again, no absolute standards exist when they are drawn from man, no matter how right it may sound.
The root of our disagreement seems to be in who this Biblical God really is. If He were whimsical, arbitrary, unjust and cruel, your point of view would be well taken. But that is not who He really is. He is holy, loving, just, merciful, kind, gracious, unchangeable, all knowing, self sufficient, eternal and good. This is his intrinsic character, (at least in part, the list is not exhaustive) and he cannot violate who He is. He cannot simply look the other way and ignore the sinfulness of His people because He is holy, yet He loves us, so He chose to make a way of redemption. I know you love your family. If you told your child to stay out of the road, and he wandered in front of a truck, you would do whatever it took to save that child, even if you died to save his life. God chose to become man, live a perfect life that was worthy to pay the price for my sin, and then offered that life on the cross as payment to satisfy the justice of God and extend His mercy and grace to me.
Experiencing the grace and mercy of God is evidence, not just of His existence, but also of His goodness and righteous character. I hope and pray that someday you will experience that as well.
Look what I found:
“Dr. Koehler grew up as an absolute atheist.”
Somehow, this whole conversation seems a bit too absurd now.
Jay you didn’t really have to do much digging. The fact that Dad was an atheist prior to his conversion is pretty common knowledge. I might add that, inspite of your protests, no one is putting words in your mouth or telling you what you believe. You’re doing that all by yourself.
“You are saying that other people’s beliefs do not dictate reality but that yours do. ”
No that is not what I said at all and it boggles my mind that anyone could misconstrue what I actually said. I try to only believe things that are true. That’s what makes me a reasoning individual. You know as well as I do that people are capable of believing things that are not true, and if you show me with reasoned logic and evidence that I believe something that isn’t true I will, and have, changed my mind. That is what rational people do.
“Continuing scientific discovery supports intelligent design, which points to an intelligent Designer.”
No it doesn’t. It affirms natural causation. That is how science works.
“The evidence for the existence of God is easy to see, it is reality.”
The evidence that you seem to refer to is an argument from ignorance which is a logical fallacy. It is simply stated as “No one can find any natural cause for this so a deity must be the cause.” It’s actually worse than that because even if design was a valid option it still leaves open the proposition of what the “designer” actually is. If the evidence you see for a god cannot be distinguished from a team of science loving, universe creating pixies, then it really isn’t evidence for a god at all. Once you understand that it is perfectly acceptable and honest and humble to simply say that you don’t know, you will understand why I think as I do.
“Not every war that has been fought in recent history has been a just war, but as an example, what would have happened had Hitler not been stopped?”
I am not one to invoke “Godwin’s law” so thanks for that. Anyway, If memory serves, Hitler claimed to be doing god’s will. So who are you to judge? Why do you think you have a better perspective on that than say…me, who considers it barbaric and immoral whether or not it was divine will.
“When God told Abraham to take Isaac and sacrifice him, it was a test of faith.”
From one who supposedly already knows everything right out of the box. Abraham already knew it too, but Isaac was the victim. The proper, rational and reasonable response to that command should always be “NO!” and it was immoral for your gods to even ask such a vile thing. But still, you make excuses. Fine. Tell that to Andrea Yates.
“They may be kind to those they love, and some people do care about people in general, but the opposite is actually true generally.”
I disagree. They do care but in varying degrees. That’s why it is sometimes so difficult to strike a proper balance.
“Why should someone suffer in this life if he kills a person who is by definition just another animal?”
I have already explained why.
“Do you suffer if you kill a cow for food, or if you kill a mosquito?”
I don’t socialize with cows or mosquitoes and I don’t consider them too much in my moral equations, so no… well… perhaps a little. I do, however, think that other animals deserve some degree of consideration, because I think it is immoral to torture them for fun.
“The ability to think and reason and develop complex thought is a part of the image of God in mankind.”
It is simply that we have a better and differently developed mechanism for thought and reason. Do you really think that all other animals are incapable of some degree of reason and thought? Have you never trained a dog?
“Evidence clearly shows that life begins at conception, yet there are many people who have no empathy for the baby that is murdered in the womb”
Umm, I don’t think that a mass of undifferentiated cells can be considered a “baby”…that comes later.
“Or something simpler, is it reasonable and empathetic to use gossip to malign and destroy a person’s reputation? Yet that happens in offices and workplaces all over the country.”
Appearently, that happened right here! That’s why I felt I needed to defend myself against such a horrible attack. No, it isn’t reasonable or empathetic. That’s why I posted here to refute the article, because I felt it was simply done to malign and destroy the reputation of a class of people that I just happen to be a part of. Does it make it “O.K” that it happens in churches all over the country?
“…so as a people, maneuvering through a moral landscape with reason and empathy seems to be a failed effort.”
Because it is an effort not taken. If you are saying that gossip meant to malign is empathetic, and therefore empathy is somehow a failed proposition for moral guidance you don’t know what empathy is… or even a logical argument, for that matter.
“Suppose your neighbor finds it reasonable to steal your car, it benefits him and those to whom his empathy is directed. To your point of view he may be wrong, but he is acting reasonable and empathetically in his own consideration.”
If he needs to get someone to a hospital, he is welcome and I won’t press charges. But still you ignore a certain ethic of reciprocity that underpins human society and acts as a guide for human interactions. If my neighbor steals my car for monetary gain to buy drugs, I will press charges and he cannot be accused of using reason. So what other scenario could there be where I cannot be made to understand, through empathy reason and logic, actions taken out of desperation in an effort to secure a good outcome, from those meant to secure a nefarious one?
“The root of our disagreement seems to be in who this Biblical God really is.”
No. The root of our disagreement is that I don’t believe in a god and you think that I do.
“He is holy, loving, just, merciful, kind, gracious, unchangeable, all knowing, self sufficient, eternal and good.”
There isn’t a single argument you have made that cannot be turned on it’s head in support of an evil god. It’s called “maltheism” and if you haven’t researched it, I suggest you do. But still, I no more believe in an evil god than a good one.
“He cannot simply look the other way and ignore the sinfulness of His people because He is holy, yet He loves us, so He chose to make a way of redemption.”
I thought your god was “omnipotent”? Guess not. Also, “holiness” is defined as “god like” so it’s redundant to say “god is like god.” And if you are in a relationship that has a stipulation that if you decline to reciprocate you will be tortured, congratulations, you are officially involved in an abusive relationship.
“God chose to become man, live a perfect life that was worthy to pay the price for my sin, and then offered that life on the cross as payment to satisfy the justice of God and extend His mercy and grace to me.”
Blood for the blood god! Yes, I am perfectly aware that you think human sacrifice is so nice, but yet with your “moral compass” you still can’t see the inherent immorality involved with it. “Mercy” is defined as giving someone a better deal than they deserve. “Justice” is giving someone what they deserve. Your god is neither, by your definition, unless you are using meaningless definitions.
“Experiencing the grace and mercy of God is evidence, not just of His existence, but also of His goodness and righteous character. I hope and pray that someday you will experience that as well.”
And may reason find you.
I’ll give you credit Jay, from the length of your responses you’ve done a lot of googling. The conclusion doesn’t change however. Atheism is merely another form of idolatry leaning apparently to pantheism. You’ve exerted quite a bit of energy proving that point. The reality is that, you do believe in a god. Just not The God of the Bible. Atheism, as it presents itself, does not exist.
Unfortunately, Jim, you are still mistaken about what the term actually means and you are demonstrably misapplying definitions of words to create a straw man, but the difference now is that you know it. You should be ashamed, but as I see from your replies, you don’t seem to be able to feel that emotion.
No Jay, I’m not misapplying anything. I’m not talking about some concept or theory, but the practical application in the lives of real people. People who say The Almighty doesn’t exist but use replacement gods to satisfy the need to worship something. I learned today that you for several years had a profession of faith in Christ. Then you had some “bad” things happen to you and your loved ones. So because of that, and whatever other factors, you decided that you’d show God. You just wouldn’t believe in Him anymore. I am truly sorry for the suffering that you’ve experienced, but the fact remains Almighty God is Sovereign over His creation. He requires your repentance and obedience. Your belief or unbelief does not change that. You are in our prayers.
“Then you had some “bad” things happen to you and your loved ones. So because of that, and whatever other factors, you decided that you’d show God. You just wouldn’t believe in Him anymore.”
I admit, I was angry at the lies that were told to me about the character and nature of god. But when it became clear that there seemed to be no truth to it and that there was no good reason to believe it is when I decided not to believe anymore.
As you know, and as I have pointed out, you are deliberately misusing terms in order to carry out a deception. How I discovered that there was no good reason to believe in a god wasn’t a rebellion against a god. It is a search for the truth of the matter that started with a decision to learn something about how I deceived myself and how others try and deceive. It’s something that I came to understand in greater detail over a course of many years, and you are just spinning it to serve your deceptive purposes. Yes I was a believer. I care about the truth, as all men with integrity do. But when it was apparent that there was no good reason to believe in a god and my belief system kept falling short, I had to make a decision. I had to decide if I cared more about what is true than about what I wanted to be true. I decided to be honest with myself and others. That was a painful decision but it’s one that I don’t regret. Since you don’t seem to have a problem with dishonesty that a person with integrity does, I don’t see any reason to continue this discussion.
Jay, I stand by what I have said. You have accused me of dishonesty which is an accusation without merit. You are deceived if you think that what you’ve done is not rebellion against God. “I was angry at the lies that were told to me about the character and nature of god.” I don’t have any idea as to what you were told, but the character and nature of God begins with holiness. As a sinful being you can rail against Him,but the only way to be at peace with Him is to obtain a like holiness. You can’t do that on your own. You need an Advocate. The Almighty, in His mercy, provided that advocate in His Son, Jesus Christ. I know that you know the “lingo”, but you need to know the reality. Ask God to show you the truth in His Word. He has for other “atheists”.
Having been an absolute atheist, I can attest to the original argument: “There is no true atheist, because those, who claim to be, actually worship themselves as a god.” Jay, every word out of your mouth serves as proof of this point. Atheists believe that their word, or the word of some other atheist, is “law.” Therefore, they reject all other “words.” This has been true ever since Satan decided that he could conquer God. He quickly learned that his “word” was wrong, but he successfully passed it on to humanity. Because the mind of the atheist is carnal, he can’t help but be antagonistic to the Word of God. The atheist has been able – by God’s decree – to implant his “words” into the minds of people. The fruit of those words is correctly described in Galatians 5:19-21, and are the world’s daily testimony of having received them. The more those “words” gain the ascendency, the worse the world becomes. Someday, every “atheist” will go to his “long home,” where he will have forever to hear his “words” rattle painfully around in his brain. “Atheists” deny that ….. Christians believe that ….. time will confirm the truth.
Wow !! I just discovered this facebook page and came across this discussion. After reading all the comments , many things came to mind. My first impression was , Jay if you claim to be an atheist, why would you even visit a site that you know is professing Christianity? And if we proclaim to love people, I often wonder why so many feel the need to be “right” . It is pride, by definition, to exalt oneself. When we do this it only causes contention and affects every relationship you have with others, that is not love. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God, then he told Adam and Eve they could be “as Gods” in Gen.3:5. As a parent, are there not many things you try and teach your children as they grow, that they cannot understand at the time why . For instance, don’t put your hand in the fire. Unless they touch the fire they will never understand how hot it is and the damage it can do. But since you know from experience, you warn them because you love them and don’t want them to get hurt. You can try to reason with them and explain all the scientific reasons why they shouldn’t do it, but a 2 year old will not understand a word you are saying . So they have a choice, believe you and obey or stick their hand in the fire and feel the pain of the fire and suffer the consequences. Our heavenly Father originally gave Adam and Eve paradise and he gave them instructions . Why ? Because he loved them and wanted them to be blessed, and he knew what would happen if they disobeyed. I wish my parents had taught me the Word of God as I was growing up, I think that I would have made better choices and avoided a lot of heartache . I believed in God, but didn’t know Him or what His Word said. When I started reading my Bible it changed my life in every way . And no, I am not perfect, far from it, still growing and learning , sometimes sticking my hand in the fire and paying the consequences. But one thing I do know, God is right, I am wrong, and I am ever so eternally grateful for His grace, mercy, love and forgiveness. I don’t know you but I pray that you would come to know how much God loves you , just multiply how much you love your children by a gazillion times and more, that’s how much He loves you !!